What is the Fuss About Francoeur/Church?
By Mike Silva ~ July 11th, 2009. Filed under: Mike Silva.
Only in the land of the Mets could a trade like Ryan Church for Jeff Francoeur light up the internet. I was waiting for someone to compare it to Kazmir/Zambrano. This trade doesn’t help the Mets much today, surely doesn’t hurt, and may just work out in the long run.
I thought Ryan Church had 25/90/.280 potential as an everyday player. The first six weeks of 2008 validated that claim. Unfortunately, the concussion incident threw his season into turmoil and he has never really been the same again. That is not to say that he can’t, but he showed no indication of returning to his 2007 Washington form, much less, the projections that his early 08′ success created. Earlier in the week I mentioned Church as one of the veterans that might fetch you something of value. Obviously, it wasn’t going to be a prospect (i.e. Milledge) due to his subpar numbers, so Omar elected for a change of scenery trade. It’s the ultimate no harm/no foul situation. Unless you believe that Church will realize his potential in Atlanta and torture the Mets 19 times a year. Hard to tell on the former, but the latter is always possible. In the end I am not sure Church was ever going to make it here, especially since the organization wasn’t thrilled with his game.
Am I a fan of Jeff Francoeur? No. He doesn’t get on base, strikes out too much, and has lost his power numbers. If you live by the OPS+ bible, than his 2005 and 2007 seasons are the two upside seasons to hope for. I wouldn’t discount his age and defense. I saw all the UZR ratings, and if you watch both players, Church has better range than Francoeur; I don’t need numbers to know that. I don’t necessarily buy the +/- system and don’t believe he will take many wins away in RF. The one reason I think this trade might work: Jeff Francoeur is an asset. His age and upside could make him a piece to a bigger deal down the road. Obviously not this summer, but in the offseason. In the perfect world he plays well and fits in as a nice and relatively inexpensive complementary piece.
I get criticized for using my eyes and not enough numbers to make opinions. Therefore, I researched Francoeur at Baseball Reference. He was compared statistically to Michael Cuddyer and Xavier Nady. Through age 24 names like Harold Baines, Willie Davis, Chet Lemon, Lloyd Moseby, and Ellis Valentine. None were stars, outside of Baines, but each was a solid member of a big league lineup. You have your busts in the statistical comparison group like Butch Huskey, Mark Carreon (amazing how the ex Mets come into play), Kevin Mench, and Junior Felix. Even those guys had a productive season or two. I didn’t get into how Francoeur wants to play here and sometimes that helps with those intangibles such as focus, desire, and passion. All things that can improve a player. New York often has adverse effect on players, but there are just as many instances where it elevated their game.
Both SNY’s Ted Berg and Sam Page at Amazin Avenue had great pieces about why they don’t like this deal. I can’t dispute their concerns, but I think it’s a harmless enough deal that we can look at much of the upside. Remember, the Cameron/Nady deal was not one that many, including myself, liked when it happened. In the end, Nady had a nice half a season with the Mets and fetched them Oliver Perez. You could argue that they missed his right handed bat in the playoffs.
Obviously we don’t know if Francoeur will have the same impact as Nady. Doubt we will learn that this season. I believe he can be a solid # 7 hitter that adds depth to a good lineup. To boot, he probably will do just fine, maybe above average, navigating right field at Citi. So sit back, relax, and join me tonight (I will be at Citi) in watching the beginning of the Jeff Francoeur era in right field.


July 11th, 2009 at 11:39 am
The one time you attempt to back up assertions with facts, you go to the Baseball Reference comparisons. These comps are pretty stupid Mike. No one really puts any value on them, especially because defense isn’t considered.
I’d $100 you couldn’t explain WAR, UZR, +/- or OPS+ to me, even in basic terms. Hence, stop criticizing them, and for the love of God turn off WFAN and Mike Francesca.
July 11th, 2009 at 11:43 am
You are right, mathematically I can’t explain any of them. I like to watch a player to see their defensive value. I am not saying those #’s don’t have value, but the guy didn’t win a GG for nothing. It’s a trade that, at worst, you will forget as soon as its made. Francoeur is not a contractual albatross, no prospects were given up, and Ryan Church deserved to be sent to an organization that wanted him. My point was the trade is neutral. The Nady comparison isn’t terrible. I understand the OBP. Francoeur swings at everything, we know that. But I would take 20 homers and 80 ribbies out of my 7 hitter. I thought Church could do that, he didn’t and, unlike Francoeur, has never.
July 11th, 2009 at 12:01 pm
Know what’s funny? The year Francoeur won the Gold Glove, he was AWESOME in the field according to UZR and +/-. The numbers that you are so afraid of agreed that he was an elite fielder. These numbers say he has regressed since then, and Church is superior.
“My point was the trade is neutral.”
You have not provided any evidence or basis for this statement. Meanwhile, Sam and Ted provided tons of evidence to back up their assertions that this trade stinks. “Ribbies” don’t tell us anything about a player. Opinion without evidence = meaningless.
In the future, I’d recommend you don’t criticize statistics you have no idea about and have no desire to learn about. You’re free to enjoy the game in the idiotic talk radio leadership/passion/upside way, but until you actually learn what these not-so-hard-to-understand stats are, it’s foolish to criticize them.
July 11th, 2009 at 3:02 pm
Also, the Cameron/Nady deal was horrible then and still horrible now. Cameron is one of the most underrated players of the last decade or so.
WAR (that’s wins above replacement) since the trade
Cameron: 13.5
Nady: 5.1
July 11th, 2009 at 11:02 pm
Can you say splitting hairs? Hey James you need to get a grip with these stats. This isn’t college nothing everything is right and wrong based on some formula. Go out on a limb and use ur gut a little bit. I bet you get better results than this silly numbers you throw out there.