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Posada Was No Thurman Munson


By Mike Silva ~ January 24th, 2012. Filed under: New York Yankees.

Jorge Posada officially announced his retirement at Yankee Stadium. “Hopefully you won’t miss me that much,” Posada said with his good friend Derek Jeter, Mariano Rivera, and CC Sabathia looking on. Brian Cashman, Joe Girardi, and even Diana Munson had glowing things to say when tying a ribbon on Posada’s career. The fact remains that Posada won’t be missed by many of the players currently in the clubhouse; especially his manager. Also, for as good a Yankees career Posada compiled, he is nowhere near the class of Thurman Munson or the other great catchers in team history.

You could argue that Posada has the offensive numbers to be in conversations for the Hall of Fame, however his defense and game calling were always far from elite. His fiery temper, always a good counter to Jeter’s stoicism, became more of disruption later in his career as his skills diminished.

The biggest winner with Posada on the way out is Girardi. No longer must he worry about the next controversy when he drops him down in the lineup. The infamous spat in May when Girardi batted Posada ninth was brewing for over five years, as he battled with him while serving as Joe Torre‘s bench coach in 2005. Apparently, Posada didn’t care for Girardi’s game plan for the pitchers. ”Jorge would deviate from those plans all the time during games, which drove Joe nuts,” a source told Mark Feinsand of the Daily News. “Joe would call him out on it all the time, which drove Jorge mental.” Many believe Girardi was waiting for any opportunity to pull him out from behind the plate. The decline in production and subsequent acquisition of Russell Martin eventually gave him the ammunition to do just that.

Posada was a valued member of the “Core Four,” but I am not sure he was as loved by his current teammates. Within two weeks of wearing pinstripes, Martin was receiving praise from the coaches and pitchers for his work behind the plate. Brian Cashman compared Martin’s impact to that of Thurman Munson (more on Munson later). For someone that was supposed to be the “heart and soul” of the Yankees it was interesting how quickly everyone embraced his replacement. It’s no surprise a very average Yankees starting rotation overachieved in 2011 with a defensive-oriented receiver. You have to wonder if that would have been the case with Posada.

We all know about his inability to frame pitchers and call a game, but feuds with the staff were part of the problem as well. Posada was a proud, yet stubborn man who sometimes let his ego get in the way. In addition to public arguments with Joba Chamberlain and A.J. Burnett, he feuded with pitchers such as Randy Johnson and Orlando Hernandez. Joel Sherman had pitchers complain to him about “Posada’s game-calling intellect or the lack of soft hands and finesse that enables a catcher to frame pitches well and steal strikes.” The Yankees even started light-hitting Jose Molina in a World Series game over Posada. It seems like Posada was the antithesis of what you want behind the plate defensively. He expected pitchers to adjust to him, versus him working to improve his staff; something I believe is in the job description of any big-league catcher.

Of course, as Sherman pointed out, “they hated him all the way up to the three-run homer he hit,” but that doesn’t take away the fact he had a bad reputation around the league. This reputation wasn’t helpful when the Yankees went out to recruit free agent pitching talent the last five year. You also have to wonder if the Yankees had a better catcher late in Joe Torre’s tenure if they could have received better production from the staff.

I am not suggesting Posada’s final days ruin a very good 17-year career. I also don’t think anyone should have focused on the negative on a day to celebrate his career. I do think the platitudes have to be put in perspective. Peter Botte of the Daily News, probably prompted by the presence of Munson’s widow, asked his Twitter followers if Munson or Posada were the better player.

Posada doesn’t come close to being the leader and complete player that Munson was. Bill Virdon, who managed the Yankees in 1974 and 1975, said if “he had 25 guys like Munson he wouldn’t even have to manage the team.” In his autobiography “White Rat, “Whitey Herzog said “he hasn’t seen many catchers do the job offensively and defensively as he (Munson) could.”

Perhaps the most definitive take on Munson comes from Frank Russo, who co-authored Thurman’s bio for SABR. Over at his site, the deadballera.com., Russo said Munson was ”an outstanding fielder, with the quickest release in baseball in throwing out base stealers, and was fearless behind the plate.” Russo also points out how the infamous “Death Valley” at old Yankee Stadium hurt him offensively. When told of the Munson-Posada comparison, NYBD contributor Joseph Delgrippo said that “Posada was a cog in the wheel, while Munson was the wheel.”

When Munson died, so did an era of Yankees baseball. The absence of Posada from behind the plate is nothing but a positive for the Yankees pitchers, especially the young kids that will be incorporated into the rotation the next few years. As for the clubhouse, his fiery presence lost its steam years ago. This is a group that needs less core players and more of its own identity. I sometimes wonder if the other catcher from the late-nineties dynasty who manages the team is the right personality for the locker room, much less the guy who took his job.

Celebrate Jorge Posada’s career today, but don’t cry. This Yankees team is better off without him.

Mike Silva is a freelance writer and radio host since March of 2007. This website is his own personal "digest" of New York Baseball He's also hosts NYBD Radio on Blog Talk Radio and 1240 AM WGBB. Check out his sports media commentary at www.sportsmediawatchdog.com. Check out his official website, www.mikesilvamedia.com
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17 Responses to Posada Was No Thurman Munson

  1. Louis
    January 24th, 2012 at 7:21 pm

    Geez…can you be any more miserable on a guy’s retirement day??

    I wasn’t the biggest Posada fan, but, is it necessary to kick a guy on the way out the door? Curious you didn’t mention how clutch Poasada was over the years. And you can never deny he had an excellent career regardless of what you may think you know about his defensive skills.
    I know, I know…you never said he had a bad career.

    All the condemnation you lay out about certain NY sports personalities…if you changed the name on this article, it could have been written by anyone of those guys you seem to dislike so much. Maybe you should look up the word “class”.

    I’ll tell you what…remember that black eye Burnett had? I was glad Posada gave it to him. And that was something Munson would have done as well. And I was privileged to watch Thurman’s entire Yankee career…

    Best regards.

  2. August
    January 24th, 2012 at 7:25 pm

    Yea man this article makes you sound like a dope. The guy gave his all. Only mess up was when he sat himself.

  3. WAR
    January 24th, 2012 at 9:54 pm

    WAR
    Jorge Posada 44.7 vs. Thurman Munson 43.4

    Munson was rumored to be retiring before he passed away. Being generous and adding an extra season or two in decline probably would have made it a near draw. Posada and Munson were equally great players but not HOFer’s like Berra and Dickey.

  4. Stu B
    January 24th, 2012 at 10:07 pm

    Munson was 32 when he died. No matter what was rumored, it’s highly unlikely that hae would have retired before 35 or 36, depending on his health.

  5. Faiaz
    January 24th, 2012 at 10:19 pm

    Louis,

    POSADA DID THAT? PLEEEEEAAAAAASSSSSSEEEEEE share details.

  6. Russ Cress
    January 24th, 2012 at 10:22 pm

    Mike,

    I have to call you out on this one, because you couldn’t be more wrong.

    1. Both were good hitting catchers in eras where that was a rarity and that edge helped their teams win

    2. Both were fiery leaders. If Jeter was the Captain, Posada was the Lieutenant in that he was the guy who got in the face of those who needed it. Much like Munson, he was also the guy who took offense and got vocal when Yankee hitters were hit by opposing pitchers (big credit here to Posada who did it at a time when Torre would not order Yankee pitchers to retaliate). Posada was the guy who took over the emotional gamer role when O’Niell retired. For a team that was often accused of being too stoic and business like, Posada stood out with his emotion. He was, in a way, the straw that stirred the drink.

    3. Both saw their defense wane at the end of their careers due to wear and tear. People forget this, but when Munson died, he was done as a catcher. He destroyed his shoulder, and couldn’t throw at all and had really messed up knees. The Yankees did not trade Chambliss for Cerone because they needed a catcher because Thurman died. They were trading him no matter what because the plan at the time was to make Munson a 1B/DH in 1980 to prolong his career. In 1978 & 1979 he probably played 40 games at DH/1B/OF, including the last 2 of his life in RF. The plan to phase him out as a catcher was already in the works.

    4. While Posada clearly had his issues defensively, he was bad at blocking the plate because of his broken leg and not a smooth receiver, he was never as bad as people make out in retrospect especially early on. A lot of his issues were due to making the transition to catcher so late in life, unlike almost every MLB catcher, he didn’t come up playing the position which means the natural instincts were not ingrained, they were learned and that’s a big factor. It will surprise most people, but the truth is Posada has a better fielding percentage than every catcher in the HOF. So, even with his defensive liabilities, he clearly had good hands back there. His being “bad defensively” has been overblown because of his regression in the past 5 years. He wasn’t great, he was fine, otherwise, someone name me one time the Yankees didn’t win because of a play Jorge Posada made defensively.

    5. Posada should be a Hall of Famer. It’s not even close, or a matter of “making a case”. The truth is, there are around 11 catchers in the Hall. Posada is clearly better than 1/3, in the same class as 1/3 and behind 1/3. Check the numbers and compare if you don’t believe me. If you are as good or better than 2/3 of the people in the HOF at your position, you belong in and it shouldn’t even be questioned.

  7. Faiaz
    January 24th, 2012 at 10:23 pm

    Really guy? Not even the day after his retirement(which would still be a bad move) but ON the same day. Get a girlfriend and ask her to give you hugs on the hour… every hour. If you already do… obviously she isn’t doing it right, because if she was then you wouldn’t be so miserable. Yea I know… you are voicing your opinion, just as I’m expressing mine right now.

  8. Faiaz
    January 24th, 2012 at 11:41 pm

    Mike,

    I apologize for the name calling, that was childish of me. If you have a girlfriend I am sure she is great. I enjoy reading articles on your site because they are very informative and I know you put a lot of effort in it. Sometimes I might not agree with your opinions but regardless, you are doing a great job. I have new-found respect for you(not that it matters to you I’m sure) because of your professionalism. There were curse words on my post but you didn’t get rid of the whole thing… you took the time to take the garbage out of my post and still allowed my opinion to be posted on YOUR site. Again, I’m sorry man. I feel like one of the names I referred to you as.

  9. Faiaz
    January 24th, 2012 at 11:43 pm

    “which would still be a BAD move” LOLOLOL. I will refer to you as Mr. Silva from now on just to show my respect.

  10. Frank Russo
    January 25th, 2012 at 12:41 am

    Russ,

    You are dead wrong about Thurman being done as a catcher. I have researched the man more than anyone outside of Marty Appel, and I can tell you, he was still planning to catch for the remainder of his contract, which was to run through 1981.

    Also, you wrote, “1978 & 1979 he probably played 40 games at DH/1B/OF, including the last 2 of his life in RF.

    Thurman’s last game at Comiskey Park on August 1, 1979 was not in right field, it was at 1st Base. I have video of the game.

    One last thing, if you think that Thurman was done as a catcher, the following is a quote from Thurman’s good friend and opponent, Mark Belanger.

    “A lot of people said that Thurman was done as a catcher his final season, but I didn’t see it. Sure, he was beat up, but all catchers get beat up. He could still handle a pitching staff and throw runners out and was still blocking the plate the way he always did. He might have been done catching 140 games a year, but he was far from done as a catcher.” I remember when the Yankees visited Baltimore earlier in the season. Thurman and I were talking around the batting cage. He told me that the Yankees were planning on having him play some other postitions to keep him fresh, but that both he and the team still considered him to be a catcher.”

  11. Ralph
    January 25th, 2012 at 8:29 am

    Mr Silva:

    Your are not correct , but I respect your opinion. Please go back to school a journalism have to be more informed that you are at present.

  12. Mike Silva
    January 25th, 2012 at 8:40 am

    Ralph

    Thanks for stopping by, I don’t know if journalism school, however, teaches the value of Posada vs. Munson. Perhaps a few dangling participles will be corrected from it.

  13. Tom
    January 25th, 2012 at 2:24 pm

    Munson at his peak was clearly better than Posada, though Munson’s peak was brief.

  14. Russ Cress
    January 25th, 2012 at 7:53 pm

    Frank,

    I have video of the last 2 games of his career, maybe I was wrong and he didn’t play RF in both, but he certainly did in one. (I know I’ve seen him play RF vs. the WSox). Also, I looked it up, he played 1B/DH/OF 35 times in his final year and a half. So, I was close.

    Everyone else, (specifically WAR)

    Can we please stop with the “Posada isn’t a HOFer because he’s not on the level of Dickey & Berra” stuff (Bench & Cochrane too)? He doesn’t have to be. No one has ever said he’s an “all time great” only that he’s a Hall of Fame catcher. As long as he’s better than a large percentage of the guys at his position, then he belongs in. He’s got a higher OPS than all but 5 or so of all the catchers in the HOF. It’s not a question of comparing him to Bench or Berra, it’s a question of comparing him to Lombardi, Farrell & Schalk etc…(You’d probably be shocked if you saw his OPS vs. Fisk, Carter & Campenella). No one said he’s the best of all time, just that his numbers stack up with the catchers in the Hall.

  15. Frank Russo
    January 25th, 2012 at 10:40 pm

    Russ,

    You need to go back and look at the vido tape of those games.

    Thurman’s last ever game at catcher was on Friday, July 27, 1979 at Milwaukee’s County Stadium against the Brewers. He did not play on the 28th. He was the starting 1st baseman on the 29th against the Brewers as well as the starting 1st baseman on July 30th against the White Sox. His second to last game ever was as the DH, which was on July 31st at Comiskey.

    Also, Thurman did no play a single game in the outfield in 1979.

  16. Chuck Johnson
    January 26th, 2012 at 7:58 am

    “No one has ever said he’s an “all time great” only that he’s a Hall of Fame catcher.”

    Stop right there.

    The HOF is for all time greats.

    There are some pretty bad selections yes, mostly from the original VC, but compounding it by putting in someone who clearly doesn’t belong just because he compares favorably to the bottom tier guys isn’t the right thing to do.

    Bernie Williams is more HOF worthy than Posada, and his chances of getting in are the same as mine.

  17. Tom T
    January 26th, 2012 at 2:58 pm

    Just for starters no catcher has ever led the league in hits for a season in Baseball History – EVER – Munson came the closest in 1975 when he came in 3rd place and lost to George Brett by 4 hits, and Rod Carew was second just ahead of Munson by 2 hits. Thurman also finished in 4th place 2 other times. Munson had a better career percentage at throwing out base runners than Johnny Bench – yes – that Johnny Bench! Munson was exceptional on the Yankees when the team was unexceptional and he was exceptional when they were as well. His postseason numbers are record breaking and he was the Best at what he did!

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