21 Responses to Has CC Sabathia Been an Ace?

1. Pete
   August 3rd, 2009 at 6:44 pm

   Well they are in first place right?

2. Giuseppe Franco
   August 4th, 2009 at 4:50 am

   Another stupid argument.

   Sabathia is not only the team’s “ace” but he has better career numbers than the invincible superhero known as Josh Beckett – who I’m quite sure Silva believes is an “ace.”

   Sabathia pitches far more innings than Beckett and his career ERA is lower despite spending his entire career in the AL facing tougher competition for the exception of 18 starts last year with the Brewers.

   By contrast, Beckett pitched five years in the NL against weaker competition. Five years. His first season in the AL wasn’t until 2006 and he was a disaster (5.00 ERA).

   Sabathia has been fine. He’s also better suited to pitch in the AL East and in the new YS than Johan Santana – who gives up a lot of long balls and whose stuff has diminished since his trade to the Mets.

3. Mike Silva
   August 4th, 2009 at 6:49 am

   GF

   I agree with you that CC is the Yanks ace, but start to break down his career and his current numbers. Is he really a $161 million dollar pitcher?

   If the Yanks have a financial crunch (and right now none of us can really prove that but it sure looks like something is there), wouldn’t a Halladay or Santana be more worth it?

   I could see you pt about Santana in Yankees Stadium, but here is a guy that has gone into CBP and pitched well. Don’t judge him on that one lousy game in June. He admitted his mechanics were screwed up.

   I still believe Cash could have gotten Johan w/out giving up Hughes/Joba. Frank disagress because he keeps telling me how teams are constantly holding the Yankees up. What Minny got from the Mets was a joke, and I cant believe Melky/Wang/Prospect wouldn’t have sufficed.

   When you factor in the postseason, CC is not in the same class as a Josh Beckett. I take 2006 as an outlier. Don’t forget he shut down a pretty good Yankees offense in 2003, when he was with Florida in the WS.

4. Ryan
   August 4th, 2009 at 7:59 am

   Why would the Yankees rather have Santana than Sabathia? Then they wouldn’t have a center-fielder or a setup guy. Santana also would probably add 2 runs to his ERA pitching half his games in NYS, as he is an extreme flyball pitcher. Relax about Sabathia, he’s been just fine, leave this crap to WFAN.

5. Giuseppe Franco
   August 4th, 2009 at 1:41 pm

   Silva,

   A handful of October starts does not make Beckett a better pitcher than Sabathia. Period.

   Sabathia’s career numbers are significantly better than Beckett’s. It’s as simple as that if you bothered to compare the stats.

   Since 2003, Sabathia has pitched an entire season’s worth of innings more than Beckett (217 more innings) and his ERA is almost a half run lower.

   That’s with Beckett having the advantage of pitching three seasons in the NL and Sabathia pitching against tougher competition.

   Jim Leyritz had the knack for huge postseason hits but that doesn’t mean he was a better catcher than Posada (who is not known for having a lot of big postseason hits).

   The so-called greatness of Josh Beckett is a myth. Look at the stats. There are two pitchers in this division that have much better career numbers than he does (Sabathia and Halladay).

   Sabathia is better suited to pitch in the new yard than Santana. Santana’s home run totals have been going up each of the last few years and he’s now pitching in the Grand Canyon.

   Can’t imagine how many dingers he’d give up in the new yard.

6. Chris Silva
   August 4th, 2009 at 1:58 pm

   Beckett and Sabathia are both front end pitchers. I think ihs $161M contract is more a reflection on his position in the market rather than his true value. I think most players can be argued that they are overpaid in relation to their performances. Beckett and C.C. are both gamers who are huge difference makers. You have to give the edge to Beckett as he’s come up more effective in the post season. The stat heads don’t need to run to their nerd notes. Beckett pitched huge in Yankees Stadium in the 2003 World Series and he’s sporting 2 rings. C.C. just may be the type to run out of gas late in the year. He does log alot of innings and people’s arms get tired. C.C. is a big time pitcher but I think the timing of his free agency added $60M to his value. Last winter, he was the only legitimate ace caliber starter available.

7. James K.
   August 4th, 2009 at 2:15 pm

   “The stat heads don’t need to run to their nerd notes.”

   Chris Silva is my favorite comedy writer. Oh wait, this isn’t comedy? Oh nevermind then!

   I’ll second everything Guiseppe said.

8. Giuseppe Franco
   August 4th, 2009 at 3:16 pm

   Ah, yes. The other Silva with the “rings” argument again.

   Sorry, that’s BS and a cop out because it’s such a small sample of games.

   Ben Roethlisberger has two Super Bowl rings but that doesn’t make him a better QB than Dan Marino who had none.

   Putting that much emphasis on such a small sample of games to grade a player’s career is foolish.

   Willie Mays and Ted Williams had few chances to win rings and they didn’t perform well when they got those chances.

   None of that takes away from everything else they accomplished on the field.

9. Chris Silva
   August 4th, 2009 at 3:44 pm

   GF,

   I do agree on some of your points that you made because not winning a championship doesn’t take away from the legendary careers of Mays and Williams. However, at the same time you can’t discredit those who perform at high level in the most important games of the year. Beckett performed at a high level on the biggest stage in sports. Now, that doesn’t make him a hall of famer but it is noted that he achieved something many fail at. Not everybody does well on the largest stages and its not always how good they are. I give C.C. a ton of credit because he carried an ok Milwaukee team to the postseason last year. I think he ran out of gas in the NLDS and unfortunately the timing was bad for him to have a bad outing for the Brew Crew. It’s happened to him a few times over the year that he went into a pitching slump late in the year. I think it could be partial fatique and the other part is C.C. could simply put too much pressure on himself in these types of situations. However, from past performance history if I had a choice I’d take Beckett in Game 7 over C.C. . The guy performes well in those spots. He handles the spotlight very well in big games and I think he deserves some credit. It’s not the whole picture how many championships a player wins. But, it has to be taken under considering to some degree. If I’m going to the Super Bowl, I’d take Marino if that was what I had but if it were my choice Montana is under center. It’s not some silly stat I use to come to that conclusion. The guy has guts and when he was put in the position he performed. I don’t think you guys give enough respect to players who perform at the most critical times. Jeter wouldn’t be the god of all shortstops in Yankees history if he pops out with the bases loaded and tying run on in the postseason. I think thats the reason everybody thinks A-Rod is a chump.

10. Giuseppe Franco
    August 4th, 2009 at 5:21 pm

    The entire point of this thread was Mike asking the question whether Sabathia is an “ace” – which was an absurd question to begin with.

    That question has been answered since Sabathia’s career numbers are better than Beckett’s and we all know Mike sees Beckett as some indestructible superhero and the epitome of a front line ace.

    The problem is not me not giving Beckett enough credit for his postseason success. The problem lies with Mike not giving Sabathia enough credit for his career success.

11. Mike Silva
    August 4th, 2009 at 5:31 pm

    GF

    Just for kicks – tell me each Season of Sabathia’s career you consider “ace”

    Thus far 2007 and 2008 are the only two I can find.

    This year he has been more like AJ Burnett than Roy Halladay.

    It’s a legitimate question, no? Curious outside of 07 and 08 are #1 starter type years.

12. Chris Silva
    August 4th, 2009 at 5:33 pm

    GF,

    I think Mike acknowledges the career success of C.C. as a whole. However, I think the case in question is from 2009 and forward. The Yankees didn’t pay for what he did 2, 3 or 4 years ago. The contract is based on what they think he will do for them from 2009-2016. C.C. is a great pitcher and I think alot of the comparision steams from the high expectations he set for everybody with his Milwaukee performance during the second half. It’s only natural for it to be very difficult to repeat that performance consistenly. However, I think Mike is questioning whether hes performing like an Ace right now not if he is one. The reality of things is that teams give players contracts for what they’re going to do in the future not just on what they have done. Barry Zito was a front end pitcher pre 2006 and the Giants paid him under the idea he would perform similiar from 2006 -2013. We all know what happened to Barry and I don’t think anybody will don him an ace because he was 23-5 7 years ago.

13. Giuseppe Franco
    August 4th, 2009 at 5:58 pm

    Silva,

    It’s not a legitimate question. It’s a stupid question.

    It was also a stupid question to ask back in May if Mariano Rivera was no longer the best closer in NY – which was funny then and it’s even funnier now considering what has happened since.

    Here’s one for you…..

    How many times has Beckett had better numbers than Sabathia in a season?

    Beckett is on pace this season to throw 175+ IP for just the fourth time in nine seasons. Let me repeat that – four times in nine seasons.

    By contrast, Sabathia has NEVER pitched fewer than 180 IP in his eight seasons and is on pace to go way over 200 IP again in 2009.

    Think about that for a minute. By season’s end, Sabathia will have thrown at least 180 IP in all nine major league seasons and made all but 18 of his career starts against tougher competition in the AL.

    A very big part of being the “ace” of a staff is taking the ball every five days and giving your bullpen the night off.

    Sabathia does that better than anyone. Halladay is the only guy who compares to Sabathia in that department.

    That’s why the whole “rings” argument is foolish because you’re taking a handful of starts and making them more important than the rest of their bodies of work.

14. Giuseppe Franco
    August 4th, 2009 at 6:04 pm

    It was obvious to everyone but the Giants that Barry Zito’s stuff was in steep decline before he signed that huge contract.

    I said at the time that he was no longer an AL pitcher so his downfall was hardly a surprise.

15. Chris Silva
    August 4th, 2009 at 6:11 pm

    I never questioned Sabathia’s ability to log an enormous amount of innings. Howver, I do attribute that to some of his position issues as I referenced before with possible arm fatique. I commend C.C. for being one of the few pitchers who is able to go deep into games. I’m a Sabathia supporter and I feel he’s an Ace type pitcher. But if we’re going to split hairs and base things soley on statistics. Livan Hernandez has pitched 175 + IP in 11 seasons. I don’t think he’s been an ace at any point of his career. Actually, several of those seasons he posted a very poor record and its apparent he had to be an innings eater for lack of a bullpen.

16. Giuseppe Franco
    August 4th, 2009 at 6:27 pm

    So I guess the fact that Sabathia’s career ERA is lower than Beckett’s is also irrelevant?

    That despite Sabathia pitching 8-1/2 of his 9 seasons in the AL while Beckett has pitched just 4 of his 9 years in the AL.

    That’s why Sabathia has been better than Beckett over the course of his career – he’s not only been far more durable, but his career ERA is also lower despite facing tougher competition.

17. Chris Silva
    August 4th, 2009 at 7:11 pm

    Yes giuseppe your right. Sabathia has a 0.04 career ERA better than Beckett. Its a 3.72 ERA vs 3.68ERA lifetime. I see where I went wrong C.C. is far superior because over time I can expect he give up 1/20 of a run less than Beckett. Baseball is baseball my friend. Regardless if its the Amercian League or Japanese League the same principals apply. You need to throw good pitches to get batters out. Go back to the labratory and go find me some more obscene math intrepretations. If we’re going to split hairs don’t cheap out on me. For future reference, I think you better stop hanging out with baseball reference and the SABR crowd they hooked you in. This is how cults and mass suicides are put together.

18. Chris Silva
    August 4th, 2009 at 7:13 pm

    Just a side note. Livan Hernandez has a 5.00 ERA but he’s effective because he keeps you in the game. He’s not going to win you a Cy Young but when he pitches he’ll get you to the 7th inning and you’ll be within 2 or 3 runs either up or down.

19. James K.
    August 4th, 2009 at 8:24 pm

    “For future reference, I think you better stop hanging out with baseball reference and the SABR crowd they hooked you in. This is how cults and mass suicides are put together.”

    LOL! The daily laugh from Chris Silva has turned into the three times daily laugh. I can’t thank you enough. For future reference, Chris, realize that SABR is not the same thing as saber, and also realize that sabermetric analysis is a big part of the operations of many successful major league organizations (Red Sox, Rays, Mariners, Rangers, even the Yankees recently).

    It’s not some fringe science that only kooks and nerds deal in – it’s here to stay and if you want to not sound like a complete fool in your writing you might want to read up on it.

20. Giuseppe Franco
    August 4th, 2009 at 9:14 pm

    Silva can stick it up his a** because he completely missed the point yet again.

    He obviously doesn’t see the relevance of Sabathia’s lower career ERA despite pitching 8 1/2 of his 9 seasons against AL hitters and in hitter’s ballparks (The Jake and new YS) whereas Beckett pitched in the NL for 5 years facing a pitcher every nine at-bats and in a football stadium.

    If Beckett was the God that the Silvas claim he is he should have an ERA a good half run less than Sabathia given that he pitched more than half his career against weaker competition and no DH.

    Oh yeah, and for the record, I’m not at all a Sabermetrics guy. Never have been.

    But a nice job sounding like a buffoon since you can’t grasp the not so subtle differences in their competition.

    You’re a joke.

21. Chris Silva
    August 5th, 2009 at 2:54 am

    Great Dialogue GF and James K. You didn’t make a believer today but I will read more into the SABR philosophies. I think I’ll reach out to Howard and get some insight from him as well.

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